An Interview with Dr. Rangin Dadfar Spanta, Former Minister of Foreign Affairs of Afghanistan by Maryam MahdawiAsl - Nimrooz Magazine:

“When they divide their inheritance, wise heirs of any family do not split the proud tableau they inherited from their ancestors into two or more pieces. Rather, they collaborate to safeguard and preserve it. The future will be impossible without regional convergence, and if we look at it objectively, our strong and stable bond is the Persian language and our shared past”, said Dr. Rangin Dadfar Spanta, the former Minister of Foreign Affairs and the National Security Advisor of Afghanistan during the presidency of Hamid Karzai. In addition to the current global crises that have opened the door to "terror" and "terrorism" in Afghanistan and region, one of the issues that has been discussed and analyzed is to explore the roots of "de-Persianization" and "de-identification" policies in Afghanistan, which have been pursued in a more detailed form of "de-civilization" policy in the old Khorasan and during nearly 200 years of "British colonial strategy" in the entire cultural field of Iranian civilization. Dr. Spanta argues that we can solve every issue pertaining to Iranian cultural civilization by implementing the feasible policy of "regional convergence"; he adds that if we do not address it now, the future generation with do so.

Mr. Spanta, you experienced living in Herat during the Zahir Shah regime. Upon your return to your homeland following a 25-year absence, you took on the role of National Security Advisor and Minister of Foreign Affairs during the two Taliban regimes in Afghanistan. Do you believe that the beginning of the first phase of Taliban rule in Afghanistan coincided with the process of "de-Persianization" and "de-identification" in that country, or is there another earlier historical background for this process?

Regarding the emergence of national states in the Greater Khorasan region, Afghanistan, or the cultural Iranian region, we have to admit that this is a relatively new phenomenon with a history of less than 200 years. In this region, present-day Iran and Afghanistan emerged first, followed by some Central Asian countries and Pakistan in the middle of the 20th century. However, it can be claimed that Farsi, or Dari Farsi, was the literary, cultural, and civilizational language of this vast region from Istanbul to New Delhi. In Afghanistan, the "de-Persianization" policy that started in the second decade of the 20th century was coupled with a unique interpretation of the concept of "nation". One could argue that the idea that nations should have a "single language" or "one national language" to represent their ethnic identity coexisted with this kind of thinking. This incomplete view of the country also extended to Afghanistan. Accordingly, Pashto replaced Persian as the international language that all Afghan tribes should speak in the third and fourth decades of the 20th century. 

Some Pashtun rulers who could not even speak Pashto supported this policy. This occurred during the reign of Pashtun rulers Ahmad Shah Abdali (1747), Timur Shah and his son Shah Shuja, and Zahir Shah (1973), all of whom used Persian as their official and literary language. Even Ahmad Shah Abdali and some of his children wrote poetry in Persian. However, in light of the "one nation, one people, and one language" policy, a form of "de-Persianization" started in Afghanistan following the changes and developments that started in Europe in the 20th century and then extended to Turkey, Iran, and Afghanistan. Although Pashto was the only language that could be taught in schools during the 1940s, the majority of pupils and teachers could not speak this language!

This policy caused absolutely disastrous consequences for our nation; the Persian language suffered as a literary and cultural language in addition to the Pashto language not being strengthened. As a result, the decision-makers had to stop implementing this policy. Afghanistan turned back to Persian as a result of the failure of the "de-Persianization" project, which involved extending "Pashto language" education throughout the country. Therefore, the Afghan Constitution recognized Pashto and Persian (Dari), two of the languages spoken in the country, as official languages in 1965. However, "de-Persianization" has persisted up to now as a component of official policy based on an inaccurate understanding of the ruling nation. 

Fortunately, the "de-Persianization" project has failed because of the fabulous popularity of this language among the Afghan people and different ethnic groups in our nation, including the Pashtun people.

In a nutshell, the "de-Persianization" efforts in Afghanistan intensified and persisted as a "soft policy" in the middle of the 20th century. These efforts persisted during the era of the People's Democratic Party, particularly during the short rule of Nur Muhammad Taraki and Hafizullah Amin (1978–1979). Once more, "de-Persianization" was pursued systematically and practically during the first five years of the Taliban's rule in Afghanistan. The Taliban is still following this project during their second period of rule over this country. This policy causes three major negative effects: first, it hinders the development and coherence of Farsi, the language of our civilization; second, it has not improved the Pashto language; and third, it has exacerbated tensions and animosity among Afghans, further entrenching their cultural isolation from the modern world.

You believe that Afghans and Iranians are among the main owners of the ancient civilization of this region and should take great steps towards regional convergence. What are the long-term effects of "social-cultural" breaks, especially between groups of artists, academics, and journalists, on both nations from a sociological perspective?

I believe that the effects of the current policies and the gap in relations between the nations that make up our civilization will intensify and quicken, particularly with the Taliban's return to power. There is a very serious risk that this gap and cultural separation will get worse. It will have extremely terrible, depressing, and devastating consequences for us in terms of both the national understanding and thinking processes and the strengthening of intercultural and regional convergence and solidarity. However, it should not be overlooked that there are many Afghan immigrants and children living in Iran who have been given the chance to receive education and training, and that there is a cultural exchange between Afghanistan and Iran in the era of mass media, making it impossible to completely cut off this connection. It is also noteworthy that this link is a structure that has developed over a lengthy period of historical time. Even though it may experience fluctuations, we can say that cultural continuity has been one of the constant elements of the relations between the two countries, despite the streamlining in both countries over the past century. I believe that Iranian and Afghan politicians would be mistaken to believe that a close and stable relationship between these two nations could be achieved without considering the breadth of Persian civilization and the indispensable similarities between them.

Despite the diversity of languages spoken in Afghanistan, Persian is the primary language used for commerce, culture, education, and international communication. Furthermore, Afghanistan is an important part of the Great Khorasan civilization's heritage. Neishabur, Merv, Herat, and Balkh are among the significant cities of Khorasan, the last two of which are in Afghanistan. Therefore, we need to preserve this wonderful and priceless legacy. 

When they divide their inheritance, wise heirs of any family do not split the proud tableau they inherited from their ancestors into two or more pieces. Rather, they collaborate to safeguard and preserve it.

Looking ahead, a future without regional convergence is impossible. In other words, national governments with national-political geographic boundaries need to pursue some form of regional convergence if they hope to participate in the global economy, culture, and politics. The foundation of this regional convergence ought to be a shared language, culture, and history. We are all connected to the civilization area of cultural Iran, the Nowruz area, and ancient Khorasan, which, in my opinion, provide an incredibly favorable basis for such convergence. It is important to remember that the development of other languages spoken by the people in this region does not mean to negate the importance of Persian as the primary language. However, objectively speaking, our shared history and the robust Persian language form our solid and unwavering bonds. This does not mean that we should deny other languages; we will benefit as long as our languages and diverse cultures develop. 

In the book "Seraj al-Tawarikh", Faiz Muhammad Kateb discusses the destruction of the Herat Musalla by gunpowder in 1300 AH and the construction of a tunnel inside this mosque in 1302 AH to fend off Russian attacks. In his book "Hauz Nameh", Mohammad Hassan Saberi Heravi also discusses the 1947 demolition of the remnants of the Herat Musalla, including the Goharshad Mosque. Nonetheless, the Timurid-era Herat Musalla completely predated British colonization in the area, and the destruction of these monuments was motivated by the Russian threat to Herat. In the book titled 'Afghanistan Politics: A Narrative from Within', it has been noted that the Soviet Union's educational development projects during their presence in Afghanistan was exceptional, and numerous aspects of the country's present economic infrastructure are still rooted in that period. What is the truth about the destruction of the Herat Musalla?

First, we must somewhat divide the historical eras. As you mentioned, Abdur Rahman Khan believed that the Russian army would attack Herat and that the Herat citadel would be destroyed by moving the cannons over the buildings of the Musalla Complex. This belief was based on very incorrect advice that Abdur Rahman Khan received from his English advisers. As a result, he gave the order to destroy the Musalla and the remnants of the Timurid historical school. This caused irreparable harm to one of the unique historical monuments of Herat and our civilization. It is inconceivable for any rational person to think that moving the balls over the roofs was feasible at the time, let alone that there was an imminent risk of a Russian attack on Herat. Such a recommendation may stem from the colonialists' contempt for non-European civilizations as well as their unfamiliarity with and attachment to our nation's historical sites and, more importantly, its prehistoric past. These days, the Herat Musalla consists of just four minarets from Sultan Hossein Baiqara Mosque, one minaret from Goharshad Mosque, and one dome and tomb from Goharshad. According to a narrative, 20,000 students studied the religious sciences at the Herat Musalla's school, which is no longer in existence. They were also taught the arts of the day, including painting, poetry, literature, arithmetic, geometry, and other sciences. They used to travel from nearby and remote regions to study at the Herat Musalla's school during the Timurid era; today, nothing is left of this school. 

The policy of "de-civilization" in old Khorasan and the incompetence of rulers were two other causes. The remnants of these historic structures were also destroyed in the wake of political unrest, several administration shifts, and the catastrophic wars that occurred in Herat and Afghanistan. Apart from the five minarets that still stand in the Herat Musalla, I recall that when I was a young person, there were two more minarets in this complex. Sadly, these minarets collapsed; this is a major tragedy for Afghanistan, particularly for the historic city of Herat. Despite all the destruction, over 700 historical monuments were discovered in Herat during the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, all of which required protection.

In response to your inquiry regarding the educational and developmental projects carried out by the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, I primarily meant that when relations between the Afghan government and the Soviet Union entered a unique phase after 1953, the Russians were involved in the construction of roads (e.g.,  Herat-Kandahar, Kabul-Mazar Sharif, and Kabul-Pakistani border), water dams, various factories, electricity generators, Kabul Polytechnic University, and other structures and infrastructure across Afghanistan. Nevertheless, these should not make us forget the devastation and slaughter following the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. 

What was the story behind the destruction of Goharshad Mosque during the reign of Zahir Shah? According to oral history, the governor or ruler of Herat at the time ordered the destruction of this mosque, which was built during the Timurid period, one in the Herat Musalla and the other in Mashhad.

Along with other important historical structures in the Herat Musalla, the Goharshad Mosque was destroyed and damaged during the reign of Abdur Rahman Khan, not Zahir Shah. One of the Herat governors also destroyed some historical relics to construct a park. Parts of the destroyed Goharshad Mosque were still being operated until 1979 when the Afghan resistance against the Soviet Union began. In the buildings that remained after the destruction, a religious school known as "Fakhr al-Madaris" was still active, but its buildings were gradually destroyed, primarily by Soviet military forces, during the wars. Goharshad Garden was also a special resort for women for a long time. Women would gather there for celebrations in the final week of the year for the Chaharshanbe Suri ceremony and from Nowruz to the thirteenth day of spring.

Cultural and political experts from Central Asia and the Caucasus region argue that Stalin's "de-religionization" policy was applied to all religions in the Soviet Union, with regard to numerous ancient monuments, particularly Iranian mosques that served as reminders of their unique architectural style, culture, and artwork from various eras. These monuments were destroyed in this country as a result of these lands being annexed during the Tsarist Russia period. Could the destruction of the Herat Musalla remnants during the Soviet Union's presence in Afghanistan be attributed to Stalin's "de-religionization" policy or the result of wartime events?

The Soviet forces and supporters were cautious when dealing with religious buildings in Afghanistan because one of the primary reasons for our people's resistance against the Soviet Union's occupation was their religious conviction. Furthermore, the Bolsheviks' "extreme de-religionization" policy had somewhat changed after the Stalin era. In my opinion, these devastations are more caused by simply ignoring the historical significance of "other" peoples during the conflict. Under the pretext that they shielded the enemy forces and obscured the Soviet soldiers' view, the Soviet forces even felled numerous trees on both sides of the main road leading to the Herat Airfield. When I was the national security advisor, American forces also felled over 10,000 pomegranate trees in Panjawai, Kandahar, because the opposition had been using them as shields and shelters.

In your book "Afghanistan Politics: A Narrative from Within", you state that the British carefully inserted what they wanted into the texts, much as they used Anglophone Afghans to help them insert the word "insurgency" instead of "terrorism" into international documents pertaining to Afghanistan. You possess expertise in political science as your academic major, as well as sociology, economic cooperation, and international technique. Additionally, you have served as Hamed Karzai's Minister of Foreign Affairs and National Security Advisor. Is it true that the term "British colonial socio-cultural terrorism" first appeared in the political literature of cultural geography of Iran to describe the social, economic, political, and cultural harms brought about by the "200-year British colonial strategy" as a "road map" in the area, particularly in Afghanistan?

I think it is challenging to answer this question in a remote interview or even a face-to-face one. To put it succinctly, I have to say that, thankfully, the days of a globalized society and colonial rule—whether it be traditional or contemporary—are fading away at an irreversible rate. It can be said with sadness that what has happened to us people of the Third World since the time of modernity has been its destructive side. It has been a dialectic of modernity. Racism, dependency, and Eurocentricity have all permeated this historical period. It is extremely difficult to achieve convergence and alignment among the countries of our region because of the ideological, political, geographical, and cultural ruptures and separations that have occurred throughout our civilization. Even some believe that such convergence is unachievable. However, I think that regional solidarity and convergence are inevitable. In the words of our Iranian friends, we cannot demonstrate our strength as separate and weak governments in opposition to what is being manifested. However, such complex issues should be dealt with strategically. Such a project will take decades of arduous labour to realize. However, let our future generations make this "impossible" possible; it is a certain kind of utopia that is achievable.

You mentioned the Nowruz rituals held in the Herat Musalla. What are the similarities and differences between the Chaharshanbeh Suri and Nowruz celebrations in Herat and other cities of Iran?

The difference between Nowruz celebrations is that in Iran, at least the governments have not systematically opposed Nowruz, but in Afghanistan, due to the opposition of the mullahs, the governments were unable to hold this ancient ceremony in continuation of our historical tradition or cancel completely due to people's heart. With a name change, they attempted to celebrate something akin to Nowruz called "Peasant's Day." However, the reality of Nowruz was warped in official politics, and since "Peasant's Day" was not historically established among the Afghan people, Nowruz was celebrated in various ways.

The most magnificent celebration of this ceremony took place at "Jashan-e Gol Sorkh" in Balkh; Afghans used to travel from all over to Mazar-e-Sharif to participate in this ceremony. While people celebrated Nowruz in various ways across Afghanistan, the celebration in Herat, as in other Khorasan cities, was accompanied by a unique splendor. Samanak (Samanu) cooking, Daf playing, singing, wrestling competitions, horse racing, and wearing new clothes were among the rituals of this magnificent celebration.

What is your best childhood memory of Nowruz at your father's house? How did you celebrate this ancient ritual (Haft Sin, Nowruz night meal, parties, etc.)?

I have just remembered this poem by Nasser Khosrow:

The scorpion of foreignness bothered my heart

It seems that it found no one more helpless than me in the world 

When I was a child, the Nowruz ceremonies were full of joy and hope. The girls and women of our village used to gather in our house and cook Samanu, play Daf, and sing until the dawn of Nowruz. We were also happy that tomorrow we will receive gifts from the elders, wear new clothes, and eat seven fruits. People in most parts of Afghanistan customarily prepare seven different kinds of fruits a few days before Nowruz. People serve their guests with these specially prepared fruits or send them to their friends and relatives. Here, I would like to remind you that, in addition to Haft Sin, another Nowruz ritual observed in the western provinces of Afghanistan is called the Haft Miveh (seven fruits). However, the Haft Miveh can be found throughout Afghanistan. Dried elderberries, dried pistachios, dried almonds, dried nuts (walnuts), dried apricots, black raisins, and red raisins are all combined to make the Haft Miveh.

In the old days, people in Herat would go to the hills to the north of the city to watch horse racing and wrestling, while kids played on the merry-go-round and musicians performed songs and instruments. People used to go hiking and sightseeing after Nowruz and have celebrations every Friday until the start of summer in one of the most popular locations.

Children used to stay up all night before Nowruz because they were so excited to wear new clothes, receive gifts, and watch traditional shows; “The excitement of new clothes keeps the child awake!”

When and where did you celebrate the last Nowruz?

I celebrated the last Nowruz in exile last year with my kids, grandchildren, and two of my brothers and their families who reside in Germany while longing for better days for our country and nation. Finally, I would like to thank you for your time and attention. Let me congratulate you on Nowruz in the language of our dear compatriot, the people of Tajikistan: “May your Nowruz-e Alam Afroz [world illuminator] be blessed.”

Note: In a valuable initiative, Nimrooz Magazine, in collaboration with the Afghan Institute of Strategic Studies, has dedicated its latest special issue to the historic city of Herat. This special issue comprises articles, dialogues, and notes from prominent professors, researchers, and writers, examining various aspects of Herat, including its history, culture, politics, and sociology. To download the Persian PDF version, please follow this link.

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The article does not reflect the official opinion of the AISS.